Church Analytics

Monday, May 14, 2007

The Latest Craze in Lagos.

The latest fashion in Lagos for young girls these days is getting married to older Men, not just older men but divorced or married men.

Beautiful Ibidun Ajayi, former Miss Lux, as stunning as she looks, and as young as she is,ended up marrying a divorcee pastor,who already has grown up kids and is in his Early 50's. (He's a pastor,lol).
Sade Okoya got married to Razak Okoya, a few years ago but she was in her mid 20's when she got married to him while he was approaching his 63rd birthday.
Her husband already had 3 wives before she became his wife no. 4. (He's wealthy).
Beautiful half-caste, Caroline Ekanem and the man she has a baby for. Caroline is in her 20's while her Man, Musa Danjuma, is still married, in his 50's and is a lot older than her.(He's wealthy).

I have a friend Ngozi (not her real name) who is 26 and is currently married to a 52 year old man. (He's rich).

There's Princess (not her real name, but a friend of mine) who is 24 and is getting married to a 58 year old divorcee, whose youngest daughter is 31 years old. They would be getting married next month. (He's very rich).

Then Amah and Korede: These two pretty girls in their early 20's had promising careers in Music and Dancing respectively until Amah got pregnant and had a child for singer, OJB Jezreel, AKA Jigger. OJB is still married to his wife of several years and is in his early 40's, but didn't see nothing wrong in having extra marital affairs. Amah, who was happy to be wife N0.2 has received a shocker as Korede(professional dancer) who is in her 20's and a bit younger than Amah is currently carrying Jigger's child.
What goes around, comes around. lol.

If these girls were in their late 30's, fine, i would say OK, perhaps they got married cos they were getting too old to choose, but ,heck, these are young, beautiful girls. And this is the 21st century.

In the US, it's the young guys dating or marrying their mother's or older sister's age mates.
What happened to people dating others in their age group or girls dating/marrying men few years older or 10 years(for those who like older guys) older than them?

There are so many unknown young girls here in Lagos who are married to much older guys but i wont include their names cos they ain't celebrities. (People won't relate to them).
Will add more names to the list as i remember them.

63 comments:

SET said...

LOL, you are funny, I am alone home and laughing at this post.

Anonymous said...

if i have my way vera,i will marry a far older man,who has plenty of money 2 take care of me and my family.i luv money n wil defintely be happy in a home where there is too much.

Anonymous said...

carol,enjoy ur life jare,life is sweet!with a big car and everything money can buy,i sure would get me an old man.

pamelastitch said...

i am a young poor gal looking for an older rich man..possibly in his 50..hook me up...i promise to give him a good time with no heart attack. lol!!

Stupar99´ers Football said...

Guess I am one of the lucky young guys then ;o)

Vera Ikeji said...

@ Set. But it's the truth, lol.
@ Laura, no comment.
@ Pamela, i dont know any one o!!! Lol.
@ Stevo, yes u are. lol.

Stupar99´ers Football said...

I know I am :)

mots said...

Look at it from this point of view. Men would be men. Old or young. If u marry a young guy and he f..ks up, u go just cry till whenever. Check d ADVANTAGES of marrying an old pale
- u are not number one anyway, u dont expect too much romance.
- u will leave with something in ur pocket.
- no strength to climb u every minute like a young man will.
- no little squabbles like d unnecessary ones u'll have with young guys over trivial issues cos he's too mature for that.
- if u persevere long enough he'll die, leave his riches to u and then u buy urself a young, fineboy! Shikena!!!

Jade said...

hi vera, i think you should be careful what you write or say o! people have their choices and i think its wrong for you to say its a fashion craze for younger women to be getting married to older men.

i particularly take offense as per Ibidun Ajayi's case. she's a friend of mine and i can tell you that she married her husband based on mutual love and respect for each other.

And please her husband has no children o! yes he was divorced but he's defnitely not in his fifties. Where do you get your information girl?

Please be careful o!

Take care

My piece of mind

Nyemoni said...

LINDA, VERA, LAURA... Just how many Ikeji girls are there??? You are lucky to have sisters o! I have just 1.... I thank God for that sha...
Back to the topic... It's all about choice I think... some girls genuinely love the older men, some don't and for them it's about money, for some it's about peace of mind, for some it's about attention: I can only imagine the attention these younger women get from older men which they otherwise may/may not get... my 2 cents...

TJ The Actor said...

I don't see anything wrong hooking up with older men, as u know majority of our young men now don't wanna get married without first making dough$$$...and as for those young chicks age is not on their side so why not grabbing any proposal from old but rich BIG POPAS?!!!! i beg i no blame dem my only question is are they really happy with those old cargos?

Jadedjune said...

do people still say half-caste? lol

catwalq said...

I have always liked older men; i think that stems from my parents having me in their thirties and me being brought up to always act older than my colleagues...so generally would be gravitating towards the older demographic
However, marrying a man simply because of what he can do for you NOW, is the dumbest thing u can do. He dies today, u start the will battle tomorrow and u never know if he remembered to put u in it. Most of these girls do not have their own sources of income and might be unpleasantly surprised later.
But right now, they are happy and that is all that counts

BOBBY said...

This is serious...

BOBBY said...

Oh and i dont think that Vera was insulting or making fun of anyone...all the babe is saying is that, it has become popular...finish.

Vera Ikeji said...

@ Bobby. Thank you O!! Abeg help me tell them. Na wa o!
Thanks for understanding my point.

Anonymous said...

Abeg oh, I grew up having every tjing I needed, so I have made up my mind to marry a very rich guy who can satisfy my wide mouth. Well, most rich guys are old anyway, and I don't mind one.The young ones with money probably inherited them and they are so full of themselves.
To cut my story short, I'll love to marry a older, very rich man, a divorcee or widower anyway.

Anonymous said...

just so you know and correct the misinformation, pastor ituah ighodalo (ibidun's husband) is 47 and has no children yet!

Chris said...

Hey all
I am a 61 yr old hard working male and far from being rich. I am a widower and am always looking for the right person to share the rest of my life with. Us older gents only want love and respect and we have a hard time getting it from some lady our age. Besides the ladies our age are not atractive in looks are personality. So yong girls write me and let me know what you think.

Anonymous said...

looks like someone is taking this personal.... if your bible tells you to marry a divorced man / pastor shoot it's up to you....lol

Anonymous said...

sometimes i wonder where some girls keep their brains....older men are often richer cause they've been their and had a chance at life....some younger ones will sure get there or even further

Anonymous said...

Please, please and please. these girls are freakin' gold diggers and their eyes are too big. a man old enough to be your father has experienced everything on earth and you choose the leftovers. PLEASE! there's nothing cool or trendy about it. it's called cutting your coat according to your size and not being greedy. Ibidun Ajayi has always been that kind of person. Always wanting older, working class men...she needs to chill out and stop being such a gold digger. why do you think she's still in the spotlight? because of her golddigging ways. there's nothing mutual about any love and respect...the chic is greedy!

Anonymous said...

and as for caroline you better stop messing with married men. what goes around definitely comes back around

Anonymous said...

Na real wah !!!
Ibidun's husband - Pastor Ituah is a well respected person and close family friend of ours. He is not 50 and has no children ( yet).
why not verify your info properly before posting it .

prov 3 - 5, 6

Anonymous said...

I am not so sure if saying half-caste is still politically correct, I think the more acceptable language now na "mixed race". The content of a persons character is only visible by what direction that person chooses when he or she is faced with drowning poverty. We all cannot judge and neither can we be futuristic about how we are going to behave in such situation. Our focus should be empowering our people to be self sufficient.

UnNaked Soul said...

i can't wait to be old and rich *sigh*

Anonymous said...

i think ibudun ajayi is not the least the girl next door she is so fully of herself now from those who knew her from ages ago
she is the most confused individual on personality issue just pls help say to her that money aint everything and money comes and goes and what u did when u had it is what would keep u after u lose it think about this ibudun u arrogant girl
i dont know u personally but heard so much about u everywhere clean up ur act

Anonymous said...

Hey Guys,
I stumbled upon this site while surfing..what a discussion and very important one too.
I am 31.I am successful.I have my own home and 3 cars.I am single.I have contemplated marrying an older guy(13 years older).I think about this long and hard everyday.But the bottomline is:who knows tommorow?There are no guarantees in life.I marry a young guy today he dies tommorow,I may marry an older man and we will be together for another 50 years..who knows?
No matter what you choose,you may or may not be happy.You marry a young guy,when you get to the mid age,he sees you as unattractive he wants younger blood;when u marry an older man u feel he is old when u r in ur mid age as well..so either way u cannot win or lose..But you can be happy if you know you married for the right reasons,because you love that person and because you can stand that person.But even then,that may not be totally enough le tus not kid ourselves.You man shd provide and take care of you,he shd endeavour to take care of his own body too.You on your part should take care of yourself,show him love and respect him,let him always remember why he chose you.
May God help us all.

Anonymous said...

A word for the person who called Ibidun a gold digger....If you are a lady, you so want to be in her shoes but can't get to where she is so stop hating... and if you are a guy.... you sound so bitter like your dream to hook up with her and dig from her gold just never became a reality so stop the bull shit of calling her a gold digger...

I don't know either you or Ibidun but who cares really! She can do watever pleases her and no one should discuss her business in public.

We all want the best in life and if she gets its from an older man, then tough!

Anonymous said...

oh no...I definitely wasn't trying to make such a negative comment about Ibidun prior. Right after I posted it, I was like, "now that doesn't sound right. that looks really mean and hater-like" but I didn't intend to portray it that way. I know Ibidun quite well, and I wish her nothing but the best. I'm definitely not hating on her because I'm an extremely accomplished woman myself, and I have also had my share of fame, so I wasn't trying to be negative at all. Bottomline is if she's happy, so be it. My only beef, however, is when it seems as though getting with older men is the way to go..or any man for that matter because of money. Even men that date women for their money totally turn me off. so I had known her a bit and noticed it was like a trend, but who knows...it could have been a coincidence and she could have been extremely happy with all of them. Yeah that comment was rude and I apologize, but shedding away from Ibidun...if a woman hooks up with ANY man for money...old or young...there will not be any happiness in that marriage. My father taught me to make everything for myself, and I have. He and my mom hooked up when he barely had anything, but they're still in-love after over 30 years, and yes they've both acquired a lot together. I'm happily married myself to a man that's so wonderful, and we've started a life of acquiring together. That, my people, is the way to go. Earn it together so you can both enjoy it together, and if either of you happens to have a lot prior to meeting each other, that's great

Anonymous said...

gold digger or not only beef I have is she's a snob. since she got her crown she acts like she don't know nobody. a friend approached her years back telling her hello and asking if she knew me and she insulted me and my friend by saying oh so u know blah blah blah (my name hidden) and she walked away. when my friend told me I was like damn! it is not even that serious abeg o. my friend used to think she was pretty but after that she was like "NO!"

Anonymous said...

u r just ignorant, pastor Ituah was not married with children, neither is he in his early 50s, please get ur facts right.

Anonymous said...

Either married to young or old, LOVE IS ALL THAT MATTERS.
I reside in the USA and I listen to Pastor Ighodalo's sermon on Radio everyday. Makes me miss Nigeria a lot. He has Blessed my life. Ituah and Ibidun Ighodalo are a perfect couple and I wish them a blissful life.
FYI, Pastor Ighodalo has no Children and he is 47(He deserves his happiness in life).
Yal mind ur business!!!

Anonymous said...

pastor ituah is my pastor and ibidun a friend....its not wat u think or wat u think u know.
pple!!!!!!!!! be careful about wat u say,esp about a true man of God... its a dangerous thing to fall into the hands of MIGHTY God.

Anonymous said...

Pastor ituah is a pastor in RCCG, how come he is divorced and remarried when RCCG is against divorce... are you guys sure of what such nonsense you all write about?

Anonymous said...

Judgment is mine says the Lord. I am sure 98%of those who have made negative remarks on this site are worse. Ibidun Ighodalo is NO Gold Digger. This is one of the most hardworking young ladies in Nigeria who owns a successful event outfit called Elizerbeth R. Her Husband is one of the most giving, kind and God fearing men of God around. Bottom line these two are happily married and what God has joined together let no man put asunder. This is no age limit in Love for those who know what real love means. PI (Pastor Ituah) as popularly known has been at his happiest and well put together in Years. So What is u business if he marries 5 times. Who judges u when u all think of your best friends husbands and masturbate? who sees u when u think bad thots towards ur co worker. please be careful and stop assassinating peoples characters...

Anonymous said...

Judgment is mine says the Lord. I am sure 98%of those who have made negative remarks on this site are worse. Ibidun is NO Gold Digger. This is one of the most hardworking young lady in Nigeria who owns a successful event outfit called Elizabeth R. Her Husband is one of the most giving, kind and God fearing men of God around. Bottom line these two are happily married and what God has joined together let no man put asunder. There is no age limit when it comes to love for those who know what real love means. PI (Pastor Ituah) as popularly known has been at his happiest and well put together in Years. So What is ur business if he marries 5 times. Who judges u when u all think of your best friends husbands and masturbate? who sees u when u think bad thots towards ur co workers. please be careful and stop assassinating peoples characters...

Anonymous said...

why do you people always like to say things you dont know ? vera ikeji or whatever you call yourself, you look educated but i must say your thought pattern is so uneducated. who told you pastor ituah has kids? and where the hell did you hear that he's in his 50s? girl you need to grow up! its either you're envious or just lack a sense of maturity. what's your business with other people's marriages? besides i dont even think you're married or happy in yours. pls keep your opinion to yourself and if you dont have sensible and educative things to post on your blog, please sell it off to a more mature and prospective buyer! and lastly, GET A LIFE!!!!

Anonymous said...

all you haters of ibidun, you call her a snob and all sorts, may i remind you that as we climb up the ladder of success in life, you need to put away unproductive friends who have nothing meaningful to do with thier time and life, you guys are among such friends. if you are so bold, why dont you go say it to her face rather than posting anonymous texts to her. you should really be ashamed of your lives cos if you were successful, you won't be bothered about people who snob or greet you. if you were rich, would you be everybody's friend? No! i think she just doesnt want useless people around her, so if you want her to be your friend, think of a successfull business to do. and as for you who say you've not met her but u hate her so much cos of what u've heard your jobless friends say, i think you're the dumbest human been i've ever known, girls like you dont have a mind of their own, they're just followers who wait for what others say before they can use their brains. please get independent!

Vera Ikeji said...

The last anonymous fool who posted a comment on January 24th should get a fucking life. If u are Ibidun,then u have a right to be pissed, but if u ain't, then u are a fucking IDIOT!!! I dont know Ibidun, have NEVER met her in my life, so why would I hate someone I dont know? Besides, she wasnt the only one I talked about, I talked about other girls, so what the fuck is ur problem?? I only posted what I heard and read it in the papers.
U said some people should get a life, if u aint Ibidun, then I think u should take ur won advice and get a FUCKING LIFE, FUCKING RETARD!!!
This is MY blog, so u can't tell me what the fuck to write about, fool!
U think it's easy to manage a blog, then try and start one and let's see if that tiny thing in ur head would fucntion at all. I could have deleted ur immature comment, but I wont, will leave it so u can go back to it whenever u want and see how stupid u really are.

FUCKING FOOL!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

pls wash ur mouth wit bleach girl, just get ur facts rite for once and avoid being sued becos u can.

Anonymous said...

this is not an insult,it just an advice,pastor ituah is my pastor and i dont appreciate you insulting him and his wife,from the little things i have read it just goes to show you are an angry,bitter,self indulged person.go and get married and make some money,then you will have alot to do and not post things you are not sure of.get a life,and stop hating d truth............thanks 4 taking the advice.

Anonymous said...

Iya vera!!agbayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....

Vera Ikeji said...

U are a COMPLETE IDIOT!!!
Apparently u have nothing better to do with ur life, so I am just gonna ignore ur sorry ass!

Anonymous said...

Pls do try and get ur facts right. Pastor ituah is my uncle as well as my pastor. He is 47. yes, he is divorced, but no children. He deserves his hapiness and not all these rumours. Im not tryin to lash out on you. But i dont appreciate the the comments.

Anonymous said...

i agree to a certain extent what everybody is saying but there's no excuse to be a snob. be careful how you treat people because the people you meet on your way up may be the same ones you'll mmet on your way down.

tara douglas said...

Its very nasty of you to label people so. i went to school with Ibidun and she's a very lovely person inside and outside so if she decides to marry an older man who treats her well and helps her fulfil God's purpose i am all for it.
... and have some discretion. you don't have to write trash for publicity sake or you'll lose urself and your talent soon

tara douglas said...

went thru otherpeople's comments and its disturbing toknow you are publishing lies.no better than the sun

tara douglas said...

I advice you to stop swearing on your so that at least the society will take you seriously and try to investigate any facts b4 writing them down so you don't hurt people you don't mean to hurt.

tara douglas said...

I advice you to stop swearing on your so that at least the society will take you seriously and try to investigate any facts b4 writing them down so you don't hurt people you don't mean to hurt.

Anonymous said...

According to a report by P.M.News, Pastor Ighodalo, widely believed to be one of the ‘pastoral sons’ of Pastor Adeboye, a miold-mannered Christian leader generally known among members of RCCG as ‘Daddy’ was asked to step down from his position for marrying a second time while his former spouse is still alive.

Sarah Taiwo-taiwo.sarah@yahoo.com said...

Hmmm... I have read all ur comments; but the issue I want 2 address is dt of Pastor Ituah & his wife-Ibidun. Though I really don't know much abt his wife, I do respect him alot & I believe alot of ladies will give their arm 2 be his wife.
Talking abt his being a divorcee, I read (frm reliable sources) dt his former wife refused to come back 2 9ja with him & ignored all pleas(& dt happened b4 he became a Pastor), she is remarried with a kid. Pastor Ituah waited 10yrs b4 remarrying & am sure b4 dt a lot of ladies wld have tried seducing him. The bible itself says 'it's not gd for a man 2 live alone'. since he's not a 'father' & God does know 'he -no -fit -hold -body', I dont think God will be mad at him. I even heard Pastor Adeboye consented to the marriage after considering the temptation Ituah will be facing from "born-again" sisters.
On the issue of his been suspended as a presiding pastor; dt's true but it was not Adeboye dt suspended him-call it the 'council of elders' & it's a very sad one. I feel 4 both the Pastor & his wife; though I reason with some people dt the suspension is a beef(since Ituah is one of Adeboye's favorite)but then the council's argument dt some other pastors started divorcing their wives & remarrying becos of flimsy reasons cant be ignored.
My prayer to Ituah & his wife is dt just stick 2 God; all things works together for good...it's all for a reason & hey it wont speak well 4 some pple 2 commit sin using u as a yard stick. Stay blessed.
2 Vera Ikeji, a word of advice, get ur facts correctly b4 posting them, words r like feathers, once they fly off, u cant get them back & do mind the way u use insulting words, if u r dt mad @ someone telling u dt u didnt get somethings right, how do u think Ibidun will feel; do put urself in her shoes. A man dt lives in a glass house does not throw stones.

Anonymous said...

After reading through all the comments i felt obliged to drop a line but on reading the comment just before mine, i see theres no need to say more. She or he has said it all.
Felt kinda sorry for Vera initially with people calling her names et al but after reading her replies, i feel really really sorry for her now. Pray the Lord touches your heart and takes any and every form of bitterness away. You know theres a saying that goes - Silence is the best answer for a fool. So if u blv someone is a fool what you should do is just ignore and not start exchanging words. The fastest way to lose respect as a lady is to use swear words. So pls take the advice above that was offered to you in love.
Take care.

Anonymous said...

THE BLOOD


One night in a church service a young woman

felt the tug of God at her heart.


She responded to God's call and accepted

Jesus as her Lord and Savior.


The young woman had a very rough past,

involving alcohol, drugs, and prostitution.


But, the change in her was evident. As

time went on she became a faithful

member of the church.


She eventually became involved in the

ministry, teaching young children.


It was not very long until this faithful

young woman had caught the eye and

heart of the pastor's son.


The relationship grew and they began

to make wedding plans.


This is when the problems began.


You see, about one half of the church

did not think that a woman with a

past such as hers was suitable for

a pastor's son.


The church began to argue and fight

about the matter. So they decided to

have a meeting.


As the people made their arguments

and tensions increased, the meeting

was getting completely out of hand.


The young woman became very upset

about all the things being brought up

about her past.


As she began to cry the pastor's son

stood to speak. He could not bear the

pain it was causing his wife to be.


He began to speak and his statement was this:


"My fiancée's past is not what is on

trial here. What you are questioning is

the ability of the blood of Jesus to

wash away sin. Today you have put

the blood of Jesus on trial. So, does

it wash away sin or not?"


The whole church began to weep as

they realized that they had been

slandering the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.


Too often, even as Christians, we bring

up the past and use it as a weapon

against our brothers and sisters.


Forgiveness is a very foundational

part of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.


If the blood of Jesus does not cleanse

the other person completely then it

cannot cleanse us completely.


If that is the case, then we are all in

a lot of trouble.


What can wash away my sins?


Nothing but the blood of Jesus! End of case!!!!


"Cast thy burden upon the Lord, and he

shall sustain thee he shall never suffer

the righteous to be moved."
Psalm 55:23


My instructions were to pick four people

that I wanted God to bless and I picked you.


Please pass this to four people you

want to be blessed.


This prayer is powerful and prayer

is one of the best gifts we receive.

There is no cost but a lot of rewards,

let's continue to pray for one another.


Here is the prayer:


"Father, I ask you to bless my friends,

relatives and email buddies reading

this right now. Show them a new

revelation of your love and power.

Holy Spirit, I ask you to minister to

their spirit at this very moment.

Where there is pain, give them your

peace and mercy. Where there is

self doubt, release a renewed

confidence through your grace.

In Jesus' precious name.. Amen!


I know I picked more than four, and you can, too.

Anonymous said...

Oh my this Vera girl is such a bitter woman, i gues its because all the ladies in her family are still single and other people are getting married! Dont worry dear, your time will come and you will marry......I pray God grants you a gentle spirit.

Gbenga said...

Hi Vera Ikeji, Havin read all comments & your reply to some, i believe u wld agree with me that 'Language of slander is from a bad belly and a manifestation of jealousy with unbridled envy' I wld advise that u shld use ur blog for more educative & meaningful issues than navigating into people's private affairs,
As a nigerian u wld also agree with me that the word 'fucking' which u used six times while responding to a comment posted on january 24th sounded UNCULTURED. I am not related to either Pastor Ituah or Ibidun but had the priviledge of being an employee of Ighodalo & co. 1988-1991 and what i tapped from Ituah then is what has enabled me to handle an account dept of a multinational organisation in the niger delta region till date, Pastor Ituah is an epitome of SUCCESS, If u must nose into his affairs talk about his Biography, from Kings College to one of the best five universities in the whole world 'University of Hull' majority of those 'bad mouths' attended Igboelerin community high schl Osapa, from there to Okija Polytechnic Otokoto village.
I hereby recommed the following topics for use in managing ur blog.
-7Point Agenda, how far.?
-Unemployment, How we can handle.
-University lecturers' strike, how to forestall future strikes
-Militancy in niger delta region etc.

Gloria said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Vera Ikeji said...

Thanks Gloria, I read ur comment b4 it was deleted.

Anonymous said...

I mean I feel you vera. take off the blog if anything because it seems as if people want to read into things more than necessary. gosh it's a blog for a reason. if you don't believe in it then don't read it. why are you browsing it anyway. it was all said comically. nothing too serious but everyone seems to be coming down so harsh.

David said...

The problem is that Girls are too materialistic and stupid! Especially Naija Girls. They like money too much

Anonymous said...

hi all,
i KNOW ibidun n she aint all dat holy, she tried 2 steal my man, so pls let vera be.

Anonymous said...

I only have one word to say to these ladies and that is Greed. if they want a rich man why are they not rich themselves ehhh. Nonsense
and ingredient!!!!

Anonymous said...

Hey stop d hate u all! for gdness sake , whats wrong with marrying older men! its been happening generations b4 us, so? look @ d age differences
btw our parents, most of them are 10 yrs or even more years older.
Besides d "young men" of this generation are lazy! In those days our fathers did whatever it took to keep d family going even if it meant working on construction sites or even washing toilets! but d so called "young men" of 2day are waiting for d white collar jobs, govt contracts, jobs with oil companies or multinatinals with fat salaries, they want 2 wear designer suits & perfumes they cant afford, most of them end up as thieves, drug traffickers, internet fraudsters a.k.a yahoo yahoo boys, 419ners etc.
So pls tell what a lady is supposed to do, we want to marry young & have children in our fruitful & childbearing age not wait for all d lying "young men". Finally Its extremely difficult to find a "young man" who is decent & hardworking & ready to work it out, without cutting corners!